Journals of the Senate
51 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2002, Canada
Journals of the Senate
2nd Session, 37th Parliament
Issue 5
Tuesday, October 8, 2002
2:00 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, Forrestall, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Morin, Murray, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Andreychuk, Angus, Atkins, *Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Beaudoin, Biron, Bolduc, Bryden, Buchanan, Callbeck, *Carney, Carstairs, Chalifoux, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Day, De Bané, Doody, Eyton, Fairbairn, Finnerty, *Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Furey, Gauthier, Gill, Grafstein, Graham, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Hubley, Jaffer, Johnson, Joyal, Kelleher, Keon, Kinsella, Kirby, Kolber, Kroft, LaPierre, Lapointe, LeBreton, Léger, Losier-Cool, Lynch-Staunton, Maheu, Mahovlich, Milne, Morin, Murray, *Nolin, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Phalen, Pitfield, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Rivest, Robichaud, Roche, Rompkey, St. Germain, Setlakwe, Sibbeston, Smith, Sparrow, Spivak, Stollery, Stratton, Taylor, Tkachuk, Watt, Wiebe
PRAYERS
TRIBUTES
Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Louis de Gonzague Giguère, former Senator, whose death occurred June 15, 2002.
Tribute was paid to the memory of the Honourable Jean-Pierre Côté, P.C., former Senator, whose death occurred July 10, 2002.
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Pursuant to Rule 43(7), the Honourable Senator Cools gave notice that she would raise a question of privilege concerning public statements made about the Sovereign of Canada, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, by Mr. John Manley, the Deputy Prime Minister.
Some Honourable Senators made statements.
SPEAKER'S RULING
On Thursday, October 3, during the Daily Routine of Business Senator Morin gave notice of a motion on behalf of Senator Kirby. The purpose of the notice is to authorize the Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology to examine several aspects relating to Canada's health care system. The motion would also permit the Committee to make use of evidence collected by the Committee during the second session of the 36th Parliament and the first session of this Parliament with a view to submitting a final report on this study no later than October 31, 2002. Once the notice of motion was given, I reminded the Senate that it would not be possible to deal with this motion until the standing committees are underway.
Just before Orders of the Day, I recognized Senator Kinsella on a point of order relating to this issue. It was his contention that the notice of motion is out of order because the committee does not yet exist. In his view, the Senate cannot authorize a non-existing entity to do something or refrain from doing something.
By way of rebuttal, Senator Carstairs noted that the object of the notice was to alert the Senate about possible future activity of the committee. Moreover, the Senator explained that there are precedents of the Senate adopting motions referring bills to committees even before the committees were formed. In this case, however, the Senator indicated that it would seem to be more appropriate not to move it until the Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology is formed.
In the intervening time, I have had an opportunity to look into this question more closely. Let me begin by noting that I neglected to mention last Thursday that under rule 23(1) the point of order is somewhat premature. The rule explains that a point of order in relation to any notice given during the daily Routine of Business can only be raised at the time the Order is first called for consideration by the Senate.
Be that as it may, I have been able to confirm that there have been two recent precedents when the Senate agreed to refer a bill to a standing committee before the membership of the committee was approved by the Senate. The first instance occurred on November 3, 1999 when Bill S-6, amending the Criminal Code, was referred to Legal and Constitutional Affairs. The second instance happened January 31, 2001 when a different Bill S-6, dealing with wrongdoing in the Public Service, was referred to the National Finance Committee. In the first instance, the motion was amended with leave of the Senate to qualify the reference by inserting the phrase "when and if the committee is formed''. In the second case, the motion proposed by Senator Kinsella was moved with this qualification included.
Despite these two precedents, it seems to me that the use of the phrase "when and if'' is redundant, particularly when applied to standing committees. As the term implies, standing committees are permanent committees of the Senate recognized as such in the Rules of the Senate. These permanent committees are reconstituted early in every session in order to carry out the tasks assigned to them.
Applying the reasoning of the precedents to the present case, there are two options available. Either the Senate can agree, if leave is granted, to amend this debatable motion by adding the phrase "when and if the committee is formed'' or the Senate can accept the proposition of the Government leader that the motion not be moved until such time as the Senate agrees to a report of the Committee of Selection recommending the membership of the Committee of Social Affairs, Science and Technology, in which case no leave is required. Any decision on this need only be made when the Order is actually called for debate.
It is my ruling, therefore, that the notice of motion is in order.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., presented the following:
TUESDAY, October 8, 2002
The Committee of Selection has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Pursuant to Rule 85(1)(a) and 85(2) of the Rules of the Senate, your Committee wishes to inform the Senate that it nominates the Honourable Senator Pépin as Speaker pro tempore.
Respectfully submitted,
WILLIAM ROMPKEY
Chair
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kinsella, that the Report be adopted now.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., presented the following:
TUESDAY, October 8, 2002
The Committee of Selection has the honour to present its
SECOND REPORT
Pursuant to Rule 85(1)(b) of the Rules of the Senate, your Committee submits herewith the list of Senators nominated by it to serve on the following standing committee:
STANDING COMMITTEE ON SOCIAL AFFAIRS, SCIENCE AND TECHNOLOGY
The Honourable Senators Callbeck, *Carstairs (or Robichaud), Cook, Cordy, Di Nino, Fairbairn, Keon, Kirby, LeBreton, *Lynch-Staunton (or Kinsella), Morin, Pépin, Robertson and Roche.
* Ex Officio Members
Respectfully submitted,
WILLIAM ROMPKEY
Chair
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Carstairs, P.C., that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Fairbairn, P.C., tabled the following (Sessional Paper No. 2/37-56S):
TUESDAY, October 8, 2002
The Special Senate Committee on Bill C-36, which was empowered by the Senate to incur expenses for the purpose of its examination of Bill C-36, An Act to amend the Criminal Code, the Official Secrets Act, the Canada Evidence Act, the Proceeds of Crime (Money Laundering) Act and other Acts, and to enact measures respecting the registration of charities, in order to combat terrorism, reports, pursuant to Rule 104, that the expenses incurred by the Committee during the First Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament were as follows:
Transportation and Communications — Professional and Other Services $ 5,951.00 All Other Expenditures — Witness Expenses $ 20,465.00 TOTAL $ 26,416.00
The Special Committee organized on October 17, 2001, and its work was divided into two segments. The Committee held eight meetings during its pre-study consideration of the Bill, while C-36 was still before the House of Commons, hearing from 38 witnesses and sitting for 23.2 hours. The Committee tabled its pre-study report on November 1, 2001, making a number of recommendations to improve the Bill. Once the Bill received second reading in the Senate, it was referred to the Special Committee for consideration. The Committee held 13 meetings to hear from 38 witnesses over 34.4 hours. On December 10, 2001, the Committee reported the Bill without amendment, but with both Liberal majority and Progressive Conservative minority observations.
Respectfully submitted,
JOYCE FAIRBAIRN
The Honourable Senator Kroft presented the following:
TUESDAY, October 8, 2002
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
FIRST REPORT
Your Committee recommends the adoption of Supplementary Estimates of $969,000 for the fiscal year 2002-2003.
These Supplementary Estimates are needed to meet the following requirements:
1) to normalize the resources to meet the current deployment within the Protective Service;
2) for the replacement of printing equipment;
3) for the development of an integrated approach to disability management;
4) to produce an American Sign Language (ASL) and la langue des signes du Québec (LSQ) version of the Senate Committee Report Quality of End-of-Life Care: the Right of Every Canadian; and
5) to provide for full funding for Parliamentary Exchanges and Associations.
Respectfully submitted,
RICHARD H. KROFT
Chair
The Honourable Senator Kroft moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Bacon, that the Report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration at the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Forrestall presented a Bill S-7, An Act to protect heritage lighthouses.
The Bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Forrestall moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Atkins, that the Bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two weeks hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator Milne presented petitions:
Of Residents of Canada concerning the Statistics Act (census records).
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Second reading of Bill S-2, An Act to implement an agreement, conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Kuwait, Mongolia, the United Arab Emirates, Moldova, Norway, Belgium and Italy for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion and to amend the enacted text of three tax treaties.
The Honourable Senator Setlakwe moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator LaPierre, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Lynch-Staunton moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Stratton, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Motions
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 and 2 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Second reading of Bill S-5, An Act respecting a National Acadian Day.
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that the Bill be read the second time.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Bill was then read the second time.
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that the Bill be referred to the Standing Senate Committee on Legal and Constitutional Affairs, if and when that Committee is formed.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Reports of Committees
Consideration of the Second Report of the Committee of Selection (membership of Social Affairs, Science and Technology Committee) presented in the Senate earlier this day.
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., that the Report be adopted.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Order No. 6 (motion) was called and postponed until the next sitting.
QUESTION OF PRIVILEGE
Pursuant to Rule 43(8), the Senate proceeded to the consideration of the question of privilege of the Honourable Senator Cools concerning public statements made about the Sovereign of Canada, Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II, by Mr. John Manley, the Deputy Prime Minister.
After debate,
The Speaker reserved his decision.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator Roche moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Taylor:
That the Senate notes the crisis between the United States and Iraq, and affirms the urgent need for Canada to uphold international law under which, absent an attack or imminent threat of attack, only the United Nations Security Council has the authority to determine compliance with its resolutions and sanction military action.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Banks moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Roche, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Lapointe moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill:
That Rule 22 of the Rules of the Senate be amended by adding after subsection (9) the following:
"Tributes
(10) At the request of the Government Leader in the Senate or the Leader of the Opposition, the time provided for the consideration of "Senators' Statements'' shall be extended by no more than fifteen minutes on any one day for the purpose of paying tribute to a Senator or to a former Senator, and by such further time as may be taken for the response under subsection (13).
Time limits
(11) The Speaker shall advise the Senate of the amount of time to be allowed for each intervention by Senators paying tribute, which shall not exceed three minutes; a Senator may speak only once.
No leave
(12) Where a Senator seeks leave to speak after the fifteen minutes allocated for Tributes has expired, the Speaker shall not put the question.
Response
(13) After all tributes have been completed, the Senator to whom tribute is being paid may respond.
Senate Publications
(14) The tributes and response given under subsections (10) to (13) shall appear under the separate heading "Tributes'' in the Journals of the Senate and the Debates of the Senate.
No bar
(15) Nothing in this rule prevents a Senator from paying tribute to another Senator or to a former Senator at any other time allowed under these rules.
Other tributes
(16) Nothing in this rule prevents an allocation of time for tributes to persons who are not Senators or former Senators.''.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Sparrow moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Cools, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Gauthier moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Gill:
That Rule 86 of the Rules of the Senate be amended:
by replacing paragraph (1)(e) with the following:
"Official Languages
(e) The Standing Committee on Official Languages, composed of nine members, four of whom shall constitute a quorum, to which may be referred, as the Senate may decide, bills, messages, petitions, inquiries, papers and other matters relating to official languages generally.''; and
That a Message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate will no longer participate in the Standing Joint Committee on Official Languages.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Comeau moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Beaudoin, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Kirby:
That the Senate urge the Government of Canada to establish September 11 of this and every year hereafter as a commemorative day throughout Canada, to be known as "America Day in Canada.''
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kinsella for the Honourable Senator Buchanan, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Keon, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Banks for the Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Wiebe:
That the Senate do resolve itself into a Committee of the Whole on Tuesday, October 29, 2002, in order to receive Lieutenant-Colonel Pat Stogran, former Commanding Officer, 3 Princess Patricia Canadian Light Infantry Battle Group, Canadian Forces Battle Group in Afghanistan, February to July 2002, for the purpose of discussing the preparation and training prior to deployment as well as the experiences of the Canadian Forces in Afghanistan in the war on terrorism.
That television cameras be authorized in the Chamber to broadcast the proceedings of the Committee of the Whole, with the least possible disruption of the proceedings.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Chalifoux, that further debate on the motion be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The Honourable Senator Kirby moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Pépin:
That the Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology be authorized to examine and report upon the state of the health care system in Canada. In particular, the Committee shall be authorized to examine:
(a) The fundamental principles on which Canada's publicly funded health care system is based;
(b) The historical development of Canada's health care system;
(c) Health care systems in foreign jurisdictions;
(d) The pressures on and constraints of Canada's health care system; and
(e) The role of the federal government in Canada's health care system;
That the papers and evidence received and taken on the subject and the work accomplished during the Second Session of the Thirty-sixth Parliament and the First Session of the Thirty-seventh Parliament be referred to the Committee;
That the Committee submit its final report no later than October 31, 2002;
That the committee retain the powers necessary to publicize its findings for distribution of the study contained in its final report for 60 days after the tabling of that report; and
That the Committee be permitted, notwithstanding usual practices, to deposit any report with the Clerk of the Senate, if the Senate is not then sitting; and that the report be deemed to have been tabled in the Chamber.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
REPORTS DEPOSITED WITH THE CLERK OF THE SENATE PURSUANT TO RULE 28(2):
Reports of the Immigration and Refugee Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-37.
Reports of Citizenship and Immigration Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-38.
Report of the Canadian Museum of Civilization for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-39.
Report of the Canadian Museum of Nature for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-40.
Report of the National Gallery of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-41.
Report of the National Museum of Science and Technology for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Alternative Fuels Act, S.C. 1995, c. 20, s. 8.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-42.
Report of the Canada Deposit Insurance Corporation, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 150(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-43.
Report of the Canadian International Trade Tribunal entitled "Report for Tariff Relief by Gibson Textile Dyers Ltd. regarding Acrylic Fabrics'', dated July 31, 2002, pursuant to the Canada-United States Free Trade Agreement Implementation Act, S.C. 1988, c. 65, s. 54.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-44.
Reports of the Bank of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2). —Sessional Paper No. 2/37-45.
Report of the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Financial Consumer Agency of Canada Act, S.C. 2001, c. 9, s. 34.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-46.
Report of the Enterprise Cape Breton Corporation, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Financial Administration Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. F-11, sbs. 150(1).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-47.
Report of the International Development Research Centre, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the International Development Research Centre Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. I-19, sbs. 22(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-48.
Reports of the International Development Research Centre for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/ 37-49.
Report of the Office of the Superintendent of Financial Institutions, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Financial Institutions and Deposit Insurance System Amendment Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. 18 (3rd Supp.), s. 25.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-50.
Report of the Hazardous Materials Information Review Commission for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Hazardous Materials Information Review Act, S.C. 1987, c. 30, sbs. 45(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37- 51.
Report of the Canadian Polar Commission, together with the Auditor General's Report, for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Canadian Polar Commission Act, S.C. 1991, c. 6, sbs. 21(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/ 37-52.
Reports of the Northwest Territories Water Board for the fiscal year ended March 31, 2002, pursuant to the Access to Information Act and to the Privacy Act, R.S.C. 1985, c. A-1 and P-21, sbs. 72(2).—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-53.
Report of the Lower Churchill Development Corporation for the year 2001.—Sessional Paper No. 2/37-54.
Report of the Chief of the Defence Staff for 2002-02. —Sessional Paper No. 2/37-55.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Robichaud, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C.:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 5:30 p.m. the Senate was continued until 1:30 p.m. tomorrow)